How's the nforce4 support in Linux?

[Arjan van de Ven]

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.

probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

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[Asfand Yar Qazi]

Post by Arjan van de Ven

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't
support
it in any case.

probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Previews/nvnforce4/3.html
You're right there - some semi-hardware support combined with drivers
apparently result in lower CPU usage that software firewalls. Apparently.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=712&pageID=1096
However one feature that you can't laugh at is the fact that it can be
made to block packets in the span of time between the OS being loaded
up, and the "real" firewall coming up. This small time span
theoretically leaves the PC vulnerable, so I think this is the only use
for "ActiveAmor Firewall".
However, this doesn't answer my original question (which I suppose I
should have made clearer): can I get SATA II NCQ support in Linux with
an nForce 4 chipset?

Argh already been answered. Another question: which add-in SATA RAID
boards (preferably in PCI Express flavour) support NCQ fully and will
be fully supported in Linux?
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[Tupshin Harper]

Post by Arjan van de Ven

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.

probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

Incorrect. While the logic is is almost certainly implemented in the
drivers, there is silicon acceleration of the functionality built into
the Nforce4 chipset (unlike the nforce3), and requires almost no CPU
time to do its job. Nvidia calls this chipset support ActiveArmor.

-Tupshin
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[Asfand Yar Qazi]

Post by Arjan van de Ven

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.

probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Previews/nvnforce4/3.html

You're right there - some semi-hardware support combined with drivers
apparently result in lower CPU usage that software firewalls. Apparently.

Actually, these people like it:
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=712&pageID=1096

However one feature that you can't laugh at is the fact that it can be
made to block packets in the span of time between the OS being loaded
up, and the "real" firewall coming up. This small time span
theoretically leaves the PC vulnerable, so I think this is the only
use for "ActiveAmor Firewall".

However, this doesn't answer my original question (which I suppose I
should have made clearer): can I get SATA II NCQ support in Linux with
an nForce 4 chipset?

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[Pawel Sikora]

<OT>

Do You really need nforce4?
Maybe sis76[01]GX will be enough? :-)

http://www.sis.com/products/sis760gx.htm
http://www.sis.com/pressroom/pressrelease_000184.htm

</OT>
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[Arjan van de Ven]

Post by Arjan van de Ven

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.

probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Previews/nvnforce4/3.html
You're right there - some semi-hardware support combined with drivers
apparently result in lower CPU usage that software firewalls. Apparently.

lower CPU usage than the *windows* firewall.
While there is a potential gain from a firewall function on the other
side of the PCI bus, this gain is when you reject most packets. Eg you
save "bad" packets from going over the bus. Now the question is how many
bad packets do you get per second...

However one feature that you can't laugh at is the fact that it can be
made to block packets in the span of time between the OS being loaded
up, and the "real" firewall coming up. This small time span
theoretically leaves the PC vulnerable, so I think this is the only
use for "ActiveAmor Firewall".

This is a joke right? In linux at least, the OS doesn't get packets
unless it asks for it; I can't imagine any other OS doing that
differently (since most are somewhat based on the same model). And all
linux distros I know of first install the firewall rules and then tell
the NIC to start receiving packets. In that order. I don't know how
windows does it (and I don't care), but if it gets this wrong it would
be a really bad bug in windows. But I guess it'd give the chipset
marketing people something to boast about ;)

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[Raphael Jacquot]

Until the OS loads network drivers AND configures IP support AND starts
accepting packets in, there is nothing for the firewall to do.
Certainly on Linux I can make sure iptables is populated (or least has a
sane policy set) before I bring up networking. In other words: "Who
cares".

guess that's a windows thing...
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[Lennart Sorensen]

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Previews/nvnforce4/3.html
You're right there - some semi-hardware support combined with drivers
apparently result in lower CPU usage that software firewalls. Apparently.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=712&pageID=1096
However one feature that you can't laugh at is the fact that it can be
made to block packets in the span of time between the OS being loaded
up, and the "real" firewall coming up. This small time span
theoretically leaves the PC vulnerable, so I think this is the only
use for "ActiveAmor Firewall".

Until the OS loads network drivers AND configures IP support AND starts
accepting packets in, there is nothing for the firewall to do.
Certainly on Linux I can make sure iptables is populated (or least has a
sane policy set) before I bring up networking. In other words: "Who
cares".

However, this doesn't answer my original question (which I suppose I
should have made clearer): can I get SATA II NCQ support in Linux with
an nForce 4 chipset?

Don't know. I think 3ware's controllers do their own NCQ, which is
pretty neat.

Len Sorensen
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[Jeff Garzik]

However, this doesn't answer my original question (which I suppose I
should have made clearer): can I get SATA II NCQ support in Linux with
an nForce 4 chipset?

I answered this question already. The answer is no.

Jeff

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[Jeff Garzik]

Hi,
I'm currently contemplating going for an Athlon 64 system. However,
I'll primarily be using a Linux-based OS (Gentoo, namely), so I need
to know how well the chipsets are supported currently.
I'd really like to go Via - but the crummy KT890 / VT8237 combo sucks
- mainly due to the lack of SATA II with NCQ. I share the sentiments
of the person in a post in the AnandTech forums
"The feature set on the K8T890 sucks. It was supposed to use the
VT8251 southbridge, bringing SATA-II/NCQ, HD Audio, etc.
Unfortunately, this southbridge has since dissappeared off the face of
the earth, and all the current K8T890 boards use the old VT8237.
nForce4, on the other hand, has SATA-II/NCQ, hardware firewall, nice
software overclocking/monitoring tools (ntune), gigabit lan, etc. On
top of that, performance and overclocking is pretty damn good. I was
at one point looking forward to the K8T890, but considering how much
of a joke the whole product line has been (lacking features, months of
delays with no explanation, lack of any variety of retail boards), I
have to say I'd avoid it like the plague."

Well, let's cut through the B.S. ;-)

* Even when the SATA core is updated to support NCQ, nForce will not
support it under Linux. No hardware info.

* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.

* overclocking -- overclockers are always playing with fire. any
overclocked hardware is suspect and unsupportable.

* via comes with gigabit lan these days. My own VIA-based Athlon64
system comes with r8169 gigabit.

Jeff

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[Lennart Sorensen]

Post by Jeff Garzik
Well, let's cut through the B.S. ;-)
* Even when the SATA core is updated to support NCQ, nForce will not
support it under Linux. No hardware info.

Hmm, either that or someone will figure it out anyhow, like they did
with forcedeth. Would be nice if nvidia would realize just how dumb not
releasing programing specs is. How can that be considered a secret.
Maybe they just have a company wide policy of "release nothing" rather
than "don't release the clever 3D acceleration in our drivers that ATI
can't have". Some comapnies just don't seem to realize they are in the
business of _selling_ hardware, not hardware interface specifications.

Post by Jeff Garzik
* "hardware firewall" -- sounds silly. Pretty sure Linux doesn't support
it in any case.
* overclocking -- overclockers are always playing with fire. any
overclocked hardware is suspect and unsupportable.
* via comes with gigabit lan these days. My own VIA-based Athlon64
system comes with r8169 gigabit.

I think the r8139 has ruined realtek for me forever. I like the Marvell
Yukon chip Asus includes on many boards (although some people have
reported problems with some Asus boards using them with Linux).

Len Sorensen
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[Jeff Garzik]

Post by Lennart Sorensen
I think the r8139 has ruined realtek for me forever. I like the Marvell
Yukon chip Asus includes on many boards (although some people have
reported problems with some Asus boards using them with Linux).

I won't disagree with your experiences. For me, outside of one brief
moment when the r8169 driver didn't work on Athlon64, it has worked
flawlessly for me.

RealTek 8169 is currently my favorite gigabit chip.

WRT Marvell Yukon, make sure it is not the Yukon2. Yukon2 isn't
supported by any driver in the kernel, presently.

Jeff

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[Andi Kleen]

Post by Jeff Garzik
I won't disagree with your experiences. For me, outside of one brief
moment when the r8169 driver didn't work on Athlon64, it has worked
flawlessly for me.
RealTek 8169 is currently my favorite gigabit chip.

It does not seem to support DAC (or rather it breaks with DAC enabled),
which makes it not very useful on any machine with >3GB of memory.

-Andi

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[Asfand Yar Qazi]

Post by Pawel Sikora
<OT>
Do You really need nforce4?
Maybe sis76[01]GX will be enough? :-)
http://www.sis.com/products/sis760gx.htm
http://www.sis.com/pressroom/pressrelease_000184.htm
</OT>

No, but I do need NCQ

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[Lennart Sorensen]

Post by Asfand Yar Qazi
No, but I do need NCQ

Perhaps a stupid question... but: Why do you _need_ NCQ? If you need it
that badly (not sure why anyone would), you could always get SCSI or a
3ware controller.

NCQ is a nice feature, but hardly essential.

Len Sorensen
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[Asfand Yar Qazi]

Post by Lennart Sorensen

Post by Asfand Yar Qazi
No, but I do need NCQ

Perhaps a stupid question... but: Why do you _need_ NCQ? If you need it
that badly (not sure why anyone would), you could always get SCSI or a
3ware controller.

For the novelty value.

Post by Lennart Sorensen
NCQ is a nice feature, but hardly essential.

So is baking soda flavoured toothpaste - whats yer point? :-)

Post by Lennart Sorensen
Len Sorensen

Anyway, the 3ware controller (if it is avaliable for PCI express)
sounds good. Off-mainboard solutions tend to be quicker anyway.

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[Robert Hancock]

NForce4 Ultra is brilliant - in many ways. Except it requires binary
drivers, which I really don't want to use. And apparently, the hardware
firewall seems to restrict bandwidth a bit. And even when its off,
external chips that end up being faster (http://tinyurl.com/4zssp)
So, I'm wondering, are my assumptions correct? Do I have to use binary
drivers to make absolutely full use of the Nforce4 chipset? Or is there
sufficient support for me to make use of the features on it without
using binary drivers?
Sorry for asking something that may have been asked before, but I've
tried searching several times through the mailing list and on a search
engine, but have had little luck.
Thanks,
Asfand Yar

There is no need to use any binary drivers on the nForce4 - the only
ones even available are for the network and audio. The network works
fine with the forcedeth driver included in the kernel - I don't know
about the audio, I'm not using the onboard sound.

Some wrinkles with Linux support are that you may need to update the X
server (ex: X.org) as there are some bugs with PCI Express video on
x86_64 that were fixed somewhat recently - as well there was a bug with
USB port detection that cropped up in kernel 2.6.10 and I believe is
fixed in 2.6.11.

The nForce4 chipset supports NCQ on the SATA interface, however this is
not supported in Linux yet. It seems like the SATA controller has some
similarity or is based on the ADMA architecture (the Windows driver is
called "NVIDIA nForce4 ADMA Controller", so using it with the ADMA
driver might be doable at some point, though I haven't heard of any
hardware specs being released..
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from ***@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/

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[Lee Revell]

Post by Robert Hancock
There is no need to use any binary drivers on the nForce4 - the only
ones even available are for the network and audio. The network works
fine with the forcedeth driver included in the kernel - I don't know
about the audio, I'm not using the onboard sound.

Your statement is self contradictory. How can you say there's no need
to use binary drivers if you don't know anything about the audio
support? Many users consider sound a critical feature.

As a matter of fact there are a few quirks with the audio on Nvidia
chipsets, due to (surprise) lack of documentation.

Lee

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[Chuck Ebbert]

Post by Arjan van de Ven
probably just one of those things implemented in the binary drivers in
software, just like the "hardware" IDE raid is most of the time (3ware
being the positive exception there)

IT8212 is a real hardware ATA RAID controller. Too bad it will never get
merged from -ac into mainline with the HW RAID support intact...

--
Chuck
http://www.counterfeitmini.org
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[Lee Revell]

Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: dma_timer_expiry: dma status == 0x60
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: DMA timeout retry
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: timeout waiting for DMA
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status error: status=0x58 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status timeout: status=0xd0 { Busy }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hdb: DMA disabled
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command

Are you sure the drive is OK? Those messages are the classic signs of a
failing drive...

Lee

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[Julien Wajsberg]

Post by Lee Revell

Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: dma_timer_expiry: dma status == 0x60
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: DMA timeout retry
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: timeout waiting for DMA
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status error: status=0x58 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status timeout: status=0xd0 { Busy }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hdb: DMA disabled
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command

Are you sure the drive is OK? Those messages are the classic signs of a
failing drive...

It's nearly new, and it was ok in my last computer (an old P3-500 with
PIIX4, IIRC).
BTW I did a complete badblocks check on it, and it found nothing.
--
Julien
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[Lee Revell]

I also experiment sometimes a complete hang of the system. But I
didn't find how to reproduce the bug yet, especially because it seems
to happen when I do nothing (when I'm sleeping or am at work ;), and I
can't get a Oops because I don't have any serial console...

You could try netconsole...

Lee

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[Julien Wajsberg]

Post by Lee Revell

I also experiment sometimes a complete hang of the system. But I
didn't find how to reproduce the bug yet, especially because it seems
to happen when I do nothing (when I'm sleeping or am at work ;), and I
can't get a Oops because I don't have any serial console...

You could try netconsole...

Good point... I just tried, but forcedeth doesn't support netpoll. If
you have a pointer, I could try to implement it ;-)
--
Julien
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[Michal Schmidt]

Post by Julien Wajsberg
Good point... I just tried, but forcedeth doesn't support netpoll. If
you have a pointer, I could try to implement it ;-)

Can you try the attached patch for forcedeth?
It compiles for me, but I don't have nForce hardware to test it.

Michal

[Julien Wajsberg]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:13:47 +0100, Michal Schmidt

Post by Michal Schmidt

Post by Julien Wajsberg
Good point... I just tried, but forcedeth doesn't support netpoll. If
you have a pointer, I could try to implement it ;-)

Can you try the attached patch for forcedeth?
It compiles for me, but I don't have nForce hardware to test it.

Okay, it works :)
maybe I'll have something for you to debug at the next crash...
--
Julien

Post by Michal Schmidt
--- linux-2.6.12-rc1/drivers/net/forcedeth.c.orig 2005-03-26 15:00:12.000000000 +0100
+++ linux-2.6.12-rc1/drivers/net/forcedeth.c 2005-03-26 15:08:56.000000000 +0100
@@ -1480,6 +1480,13 @@ static void nv_do_nic_poll(unsigned long
enable_irq(dev->irq);
}
+#ifdef CONFIG_NET_POLL_CONTROLLER
+static void nv_poll_controller(struct net_device *dev)
+{
+ nv_do_nic_poll((long) dev);
+}
+#endif
+
static void nv_get_drvinfo(struct net_device *dev, struct ethtool_drvinfo *info)
{
struct fe_priv *np = get_nvpriv(dev);
@@ -1962,6 +1969,9 @@ static int __devinit nv_probe(struct pci
dev->get_stats = nv_get_stats;
dev->change_mtu = nv_change_mtu;
dev->set_multicast_list = nv_set_multicast;
+#ifdef CONFIG_NET_POLL_CONTROLLER
+ dev->poll_controller = nv_poll_controller;
+#endif
SET_ETHTOOL_OPS(dev, &ops);
dev->tx_timeout = nv_tx_timeout;
dev->watchdog_timeo = NV_WATCHDOG_TIMEO;

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[Lee Revell]

- audio works too. The only problem is that two applications can't
open /dev/dsp in the same time.

Not a problem. ALSA does software mixing for chipsets that can't do it
in hardware. Google for dmix.

However this doesn't (and can't be made to) work with the in-kernel OSS
emulation (it works fine with the alsa-lib/libaoss emulation). So you
are technically correct in that two OSS apps can't open /dev/dsp at the
same time, but there is no problem with multiple apps sharing the sound
device, as long as they use the ALSA API (which they should be using
anyway).

Lee

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[Lee Revell]

Post by Lee Revell

- audio works too. The only problem is that two applications can't
open /dev/dsp in the same time.

Not a problem. ALSA does software mixing for chipsets that can't do it
in hardware. Google for dmix.
However this doesn't (and can't be made to) work with the in-kernel OSS
emulation (it works fine with the alsa-lib/libaoss emulation). So you
are technically correct in that two OSS apps can't open /dev/dsp at the
same time, but there is no problem with multiple apps sharing the sound
device, as long as they use the ALSA API (which they should be using
anyway).

Okay, good to know. Then I'll have to find out why beep-media-player
doesn't work with alsa :-)

Without knowing anything about it, I'm willing to guess "programmer
laziness/lack of time" (depending on your perspective). As long as ALSA
continues to provide OSS emulation, lazy developers will not update
their apps to the (superior) ALSA API.

I just upgraded all my home machines to a Gnome 2.10 based distro and
way shocked to find that it still uses esd via OSS emulation for system
sounds. So the endless user complaints about "wtf, esd is blocking my
sound device, on windows my apps can share it" will not be going away in
the forseeable future.

Ugh. dmix has only been available for, oh, 18 months, and the apps
still have not caught up.

Lee

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[Julien Wajsberg]

Post by Lee Revell

- audio works too. The only problem is that two applications can't
open /dev/dsp in the same time.

Not a problem. ALSA does software mixing for chipsets that can't do it
in hardware. Google for dmix.
However this doesn't (and can't be made to) work with the in-kernel OSS
emulation (it works fine with the alsa-lib/libaoss emulation). So you
are technically correct in that two OSS apps can't open /dev/dsp at the
same time, but there is no problem with multiple apps sharing the sound
device, as long as they use the ALSA API (which they should be using
anyway).

Okay, good to know. Then I'll have to find out why beep-media-player
doesn't work with alsa :-)
--
Julien
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[Tomasz Torcz]

Post by Lee Revell

- audio works too. The only problem is that two applications can't
open /dev/dsp in the same time.

Not a problem. ALSA does software mixing for chipsets that can't do it
in hardware. Google for dmix.
However this doesn't (and can't be made to) work with the in-kernel OSS
emulation (it works fine with the alsa-lib/libaoss emulation). So you

quake3 still segfaults when run through "aoss". And can't be fixed, as
it's closed source still.
--
Tomasz Torcz "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station
***@irc.-nie.spam-.pl wagon filled with backup tapes." -- Jim Gray

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[Chuck]

Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: dma_timer_expiry: dma status == 0x60
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: DMA timeout retry
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: timeout waiting for DMA
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status error: status=0x58 {
DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: status timeout: status=0xd0 { Busy }
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hdb: DMA disabled
Mar 25 22:42:55 evenflow kernel: hda: drive not ready for command

(something) like the same problem here:

I get lots of:

hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown

The disk (WDC WD800JB) is about 1/2 year old.
I've checked the drive in my old system... nothing!
Also WD's diagnostic kit doesn't report any problems like bad sectors,
or other troubles...

(Please CC me, I'm not on the list)
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[Arjan van de Ven]

`

Post by Chuck
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC

BadCRC is 99% sure a cabling issue; either a bad/overheated cable or a
cable used at too high a speed for the cable.

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[Marcin Dalecki]

Post by Arjan van de Ven
`

Post by Chuck
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC

BadCRC is 99% sure a cabling issue; either a bad/overheated cable or a
cable used at too high a speed for the cable.

No. It is more likely that the timing programming between the disk and
host controller
are in a miss-match state. UDMA mode detection can come in to mind too.
It makes sense to experiment with hdparm to see if the problem goes
away in non
Ultra DMA modes.

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[Chuck]

Post by Marcin Dalecki

Post by Arjan van de Ven
`

Post by Chuck
hda: dma_intr: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hda: dma_intr: error=0x84 { DriveStatusError BadCRC

BadCRC is 99% sure a cabling issue; either a bad/overheated cable or a
cable used at too high a speed for the cable.

No. It is more likely that the timing programming between the disk and
host controller
are in a miss-match state. UDMA mode detection can come in to mind too.
It makes sense to experiment with hdparm to see if the problem goes
away in non
Ultra DMA modes.

Thanks, I tried the cable that came with the drive (it was still sealed) and
experimented a little bit with hdparm...
Now, the problem seems to be gone...
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